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Single-payer insurance plan moves ahead

January 13, 2012

A Democrat-sponsored effort to initiate single-payer health coverage in California is under the legislative microscope next week in Sacramento hearings.

Coauthored by 29 members of the Senate, the measure, SB 810, by Sen Mark Leno (D-San Francisco), would create the California Healthcare System, to “provide health care to all California residents,” according to the legislation’s wording. It also proposes penalties to residents and businesses choosing not to insure themselves.

Preliminary cost analyses suggest the system would set taxpayers back $200 billion annually, with these costs “offset by an unknown extent of re-direction of revenues from existing health coverage programs,” according to a legislative committee review.

The plan goes before the Senate Appropriations Committee Tuesday. When the bill passed that body’s Health Committee, Sen. Sam Blakeslee (R-San Luis Obispo) voted against it.

Part of the proposal as currently written calls for it to take effect only when the state’s Health and Human Services Agency secretary “determines that adequate funding is available to implement it.”

Leno contends his measure will “enact a modern universal health care system in California… combining public financing and competitive private health care delivery.”

The lawmaker said the current system “is fragmented, administratively complex and clinically wasteful, leading to billions of dollars being  diverted annually away from direct medical care and driving  unaffordable premium increases.”


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By the way… whoever the write for the original article is should be given a remedial course in correct writing !

( I give ordinary commenters and bloggers a pass on the ‘grammar and spelling’ police. It is not their profession. I may interject if it is funny. For those writing for $$$, though…Geez, do your job ! ).


The VERY first sentence should be …” A Democratic-sponsored effort…” ; because it is a collective measure put forth by the DEMOCRATIC PARTY. There is NO Democrat Party. That is just a hackneyed, wannabe insult first used by none other than the illustrious red-baiting senatorial disgrace, Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin.

A DEMOCRAT is a single individual.


Excuse for this educational diatribe…but writers that employ this error are either lazy, or are showing their true biases .


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‘Joe Smith’ is a Democrat. He belongs to the Democratic Party. A bill is introduced by a Democrat. It is not introduced by the Democratic Party. So a bill is Democrat-sponsored… get it now?


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It would help for you to read the second paragraph: “Coauthored by 29 members of the Senate, the measure, SB 810, …”.


Pointing out the obvious and trying to make sense to many that identify with the opposition political party is like trying to teach a pig to sing.


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Okay, I’m making a prediction that (judging by the number of bloggers and great discussion below,) that the issue of public healthcare insurance will be one of the ten top stories reported by Calcoastnews in 2012. Keep those comments coming bloggers! You have got me awake and involved, you sly foxes!


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oto,


I agree! The discussion of healthcare here at CCN in the future will be especially enlightening and active if FACTS are actually involved!


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http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/stateMinWageHis.htm


Gives a list of minimum wages by state and Fed. Read it and weep.


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IMinimum wages are a killer. I aged out of my chosen profession by age 60. For 17 years,I worked with the aged and ill mostly. Always minimum wage (which was taxed) and no benefits.


At 76, I had a heart attack. My kids have either been laid off due to state budget cuts or have had their hours and benefits cut drastically. It’s the pits. America needs a “living wage” – one that’s predicated on the cost of living in the area of the work.


As for my friend who doesn’t like paying for what he doesn’t use – for many years I was in the highest tax bracket and gladly paid for someone else’s child to go to school or for some one else’s parent to get their healthcare. That was always a given for me. Pay back for those who went before me and whose taxes allowed

my children to go to a good public school.


$150 charge for rural fire service? Maybe if the tax base was healthy that wouldn’t be necessary? On the other hand, when you choose to live in a particular area, coastal or rural, there are associated costs and one needs to accept that responsibility for the choice made. No?


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Brook, I’m sorry to hear about string of issues your family has been forced to face. Sadly those issues are becoming all to common.


Paying back (taxes) to those that helped you or anyone to become prosperous is the moral thing to do. Those that are able to make a good living wouldn’t be able to do that if not for doing business in this country. If we are going to do well financially in this country then it’s our duty to pay back, that is in part what makes our country strong,,,or used to make it strong.


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Thank you – we’ll be fine. There are people so much worse off than we are.

Having been a youngster in the “Great Depression” this is kinda familiar territory. ;-)


When the economy starts to improve, I just hope everyone who has been adversely affected with be able to get back on their feet!


I do agree – about taxes, used properly, are what used to make us strong.


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There is an interesting documentary called ‘I Am’. It points out how we are all connected. The planet works best we cooperate,,co-op. One story told in that docu. is about how Native Americans used to hunt and share their food with the entire tribe, the old, the young and the sick. These tribes lasted for thousands of years, probably longer than any other civilization by living/cooperating together. One day one of the strongest hunter’s in one tribe said ‘I catch more food than everyone else, why should I work so hard only to have to share what I catch?’. Then the other strong hunters started doing the same thing and they started hoarding their food for themselves. Soon after the rest of the tribe got sick and died off, their tribe collapsed. The only way the tribe stayed strong was by never taking what they didn’t need and by helping others in the tribe. By doing that they helped themselves and existed for thousands of years. This is a great analogy for the reason behind taxing the wealthy as well as universal health care. Everything is connected, the wind, the water, the plants, the people etc.. those things are all connected. To maintain a strong society we must help each other. Fighting wars and and living only to help yourself ie being greedy certainly doesn’t make a country strong.


Of course as we all can see, the govt. is broken, we need to fix it. In principal though it works and when we fix it again, when we learn that working together works then we’ll all be a lot better off and only then will we be a truly strong country.


Take care of that ticker, we need people like you. (From what you said I’m assuming your heart decided to make things difficult for you.)


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Again, thanks for the kind words.


I see a majority of ‘dislikes’ on your post – and find that very discouraging. It indicates the same willful ignorance of facts that allowed 8 years of an Administration that brought us the very

real 2nd Great Depression that we are mired in today.


This ignorance diminishes the country those same people claim to love so much.


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The dislikes don’t bother me, to the contrary I know that I must be saying something right when I get a large number of thumbs down. This forum attracts a very radical conservative tea baggish type of people. I would be more worried if I had a lot of thumbs up. I get thumbs down if I simply write condolences to someone that passed away. I know that some people care about it, Cindy gets quite bothered when she gets a lot of them but I don’t really care.


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At this time, here is a list of the entities that OPPOSE SB 810. As you can see, it’s no wonder that certain blood sucking INSURANCE CORPORATIONS are against this bill! Private insurance, for the most part, is there only for your peace of mind, that is, until you actually have to use it, whereas, they fight you to the max . Don’t say that this is not the case, especially in the past! Look at some of those Congressional hearings a while back, DEPLORABLE!


America’s Health Insurance Plans

Anthem Blue Cross

California Association of Health Plans

California Association of Health Underwriters

California Association of Joint Powers Authorities

California Chamber of Commerce

California Farm Bureau Federation

California Medical Association (unless amended)

California Taxpayers Association

CSAC Excess Insurance Authority

Health Net

Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association

National Association of Insurance and Financial Advisors of California

USCB, Inc.

_____________________________


Will you just read SB 810 so you won’t be like the Cindy’s and Mary Malone’s, et al, that support their insidious arguments upon assertions and hearsay!


What the hell did I post the link to SB 810 listed below for in the first place?!!! All of your “babble” goes wanting until you read the FACTS! There’re some questionable areas, but what do we have now in private insurance? GREED TO MAKE MONEY FROM THE SICK!


http://info.sen.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=sb_810&sess=CUR&house=B%20&site=sen


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Ted, I think you ought to cool it with Cindy and Mary. They often supply thoughtful insight here and are welcome, even when I disagree with their comment. Some of your posts have got me scratching my head, yet on this issue we are in complete agreement.

This site has attracted some real trolls, Cindy and Mary are not of that ilk, They are simply sharing, like you and I, their take on issues of the day.


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hotdog,


For the most part, Cindy and Mary use assertions, hearsay, and hypotheticals for their arguments, of which the “Santa Maria Police shooting each other”, and the “first toxic waste” thread is a prime example. Subjectively, it was embarrassing and comical to read their comments in these threads, of which my factual refutations to them went silent with no response. I wonder why? :) The overwhelmingly “likes” relative to the facts, verse their modus operandi of the aforementioned, equaling their “dislikes” , is extra proof of this fact.


Just like a certain faction watching Faux News, they believe it’s “assertions, hearsay, and hypotheticals” because they don’t know any better to actual investigative journalistic reported FACTS!


When they “share their views” in the ways mentioned above, I and others will call them upon it!


I have provided FACTS in my comments within this thread, and by posting SB 810, and look at the assertions, hearsay, and hypotheticals in this thread that continue! It’s a playground for those that don’t do their homework!


Okay hotdog, I will take heed, and give them their needed break.


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Ted, thanks for the link. But at 86 pages, the amended version of the bill makes for some hefty reading. I downloaded it and will careen through it when I can, because it IS important to begin to understand anything at all about medicare and medical. Old age and sickness are inevitable.


When I read your list above, and discovered that the California Association of Joint Powers Authority is against it, that can only mean that the law must level the playing field for ordinary workers. The CAJPA, in my opinion, is the entity which fights to avoid paying out wrongful death claims for workers injured as a result of negligent government work supervisors who violate OSHA standards. Their reason for being is to avoid liability in every situation, at any cost.


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Health insurance companies do not exist to ‘provide care’ – they exist to make a profit. In fact, not one health insurance company has cared for a single patient. So the argument that California will “provide health care to all California residents” is laughable. They will force us all to buy their brand of insurance, and that is all.


This ‘single payer’ bill, if adopted, merely means that the same people who passed out ‘registered warrants’ to its employees in lieu of paychecks not all that long ago will be writing the checks to the doctor who just saved your life – when they get around to it, or a budget impasse doesn’t block it.


California already has a health plan – Medi-Cal – and I don’t know a single person who thinks its a great medical plan. Most doctors have stopped accepting it, because the reimbursement rates are lower than the doctor’s actual costs to provide service. The basic rate schemas haven’t been reworked since 1969.


Furthermore, having the State control payments to all doctors, hospitals, pharmacies etc may be in violation of Federal law, as it will lead to the State dictating what service providers can charge for service.


Go ahead, Utopians – believe that the State will save you – despite their track record that is exactly opposite.


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Single-payer insurance plan = socialism


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We need more socialism, socialism that works. Our present predatory private pirate system is broken and has been for ages. We don’t get to choose between perfect and ghastly, we have to choose something from available options. The present system is the worst option. This new effort is worth looking at. And for all the silly naysayers, why not take a look and help to improve it?


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Robert1


OH NO, THAT SCARY WORD, “SOCIALISM!”


So you won’t be a HYPOCRITE, therefore, you do not drive upon any roads or highway systems. You do not call any fire department and the police, ever! You do not use any electric company or water from the city or county! You do not send your children to a PUBLIC school!


If you are a veteran, YOU DO NOT us the Veteran’s Hospital! Don’t you ever collect unemployment insurance, ever! If you have a bank account, then tell them that you do not want your savings insured by the FDIC!


Most of all, you DO NOT ever collect SOCIAL-Security, or use Medicare, or Medical if needed!


Since this word of “Socialism” scares the hell out of you, then you have to follow the above entities so you won’t be known as an outright blatant hypocrite!!!!!


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You bring up a good point.

Why shoud supposed ‘insurance companies’ be allowed to even exist ? If their primary purpose is to make money, rather than provide a necessary service for which they charge a fee.; then the argument becomes that they are redundant paper shufflers that just exist to drain resources…vampire like, and so are merely parasites that would best be eradicated.


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You have just described the government of the State of California.


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No, you are caught up in childish dogma. The State often does good, and depending on one’s perspective it always does to someone. Unlike the creepy insurance companies that just sit there draining our resources, it actually does a lot of stuff that sustains society-and your family. Your anger is OK if you feel unserved, but you are served quite often. Do you do anything to improve our state gummint?


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“Health insurance companies do not exist to ‘provide care’ – they exist to make a profit.”


Very good, I couldn’t have put it better. You made the case for national or state health care. You might not call it providing health care but when they dictate what surgeries we should have and what type of care we should receive all in the name of profit then that plays a role in providing our health care and with that we have a problem. There is no price for my childrens lives certainly no price that should be set by a corp suit. Even with their many flaws, I trust the govt. which is comprised of people that we the people elect. The govt. is screwed up but we do have some power as opposed to a corp suit whose sole goal is to make record profits.


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With all respect, I disagree. The government is overwhelmingly comprised of people that you did not elect on a ballot of any sort. And when budgets must be balanced, what sector of the balance sheet gets cut? Why, the most expensive part, of course, which even today is benefits packages – i.e. health insurance.


I am neither for or against ‘single payer’ or’ ‘government run’ or ‘socialized’ medicine, so long as my rights as a consumer to go out and pay for procedures out-of-pocket still exist.


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The govt. is full of employees that we didn’t elect but over all it comes down to a system that we do have some control over, we voted for the top bosses. The majority of voters voted for J. Brown, by doing that we are saying that we value his decisions. If he manages to get us single payer insurance and the majority of people don’t like it then I’m sure that when the next election comes around they we will change that by voting him out and then will vote for another repub. So we do have some power. As I said, the govt. is a mess right now but it’s a mess because we’ve allowed it to become a mess.


You can believe what you want but I don’t want corps deciding my heath care. I want to be able to know that my kids will equal heath care to that of our politicians as well as those corp fat cats. The fat cats don’t care about us.


I haven’t read this latest state plan other than what Ted S. posted but IMO it can’t be worse than we have. I believe that you would still be able to pay out of pocket.


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You would be willing to risk ruin (and, of course, if you manage to bankrupt yourself in partial payment then WE will have to carry you along anyway) in case of overly expensive procedures and drugs and go without insurance? Or risk serious loss with expensive insurance you may not need? I doubt it, me thinks you protest too much, and without rational thought.


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Hey Gray, I’m going to enlighten you: I have an 80 year old friend with a lot of medical issues who gets all here medical care via Medicare and Medi-Cal and the system works GREAT for her. It’s a huge blessing. I take her to many of her medical appointments and have taken her to the hospital for emergencies and I also conclude that she has gotten GREAT care.


So, despite your protestations otherwise, you now know of at least one person who thinks Medi-Cal is a great medical plan, in combination with Medicare. Great price, great doctors, great care.


If it were not for Medi-Cal my friend would not be alive today.


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ds-gray, I’m ready for dialog. What I want to know is, how to understand the difference between all the medicare insurance plans that are out there? I


s there a place I can go to, to compare plans in a simple spreadsheet format? I am looking for something that lists options like “pays for: eye care, glasses, dental care, long-term care at hospital, home-care nurse visits,” etc..


Options like these would be listed across the page. All the medicare insurance programs would be identified by name down the left side of the page. The plan that covered these options would show an X at the intersection of the columns and rows.


Is there anything out there that you know of that would simply list the benefits of each program? That would definitely be helpful.


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ds__gray,


SB-810 would totally eliminate Medical! You stating that we already have medical insurance for California residents in the form of Medical, is a misconception on your part! How many individuals do you know that would qualify for this insurance as stated below? NO ONE UNDER 21 OR OVER 65! Furthermore, you have to meet Medical’s qualifications between these two age groups! Therefore, your position goes severely wanting!


Medical Qualifications:


* 65 or older

* Blind

* Disabled

* Under 21

* Pregnant

* In a skilled nursing or intermediate care home

* On refugee status for a limited time, depending how long you have been in the United States

* A parent or caretaker relative or a child under 21 if:

The child’s parent is deceased or doesn’t live with the child, or

The child’s parent is incapacitated, or

The child’s parent is under employed or unemployed


* Have been screened for breast and/or cervical cancer.


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Our current TRIPLE TIERED system ( YES, triple tiered ! ) is a fine example of American exceptionalism.

Exceptional in the fact that we are the ONLY supposedely advanced, industrialized, Western nation where a basic right ( health care ) is detemined by employment status. The only nation on the planet.


So, if one is employed and has decent insurance ( as decided by the employer ) , you’re covered.

If one HAS no insurance and no extraordinary wealth, you still receive treatment.

It is the people in the middle, with inadequate insurance, that have everything that they have ever worked for in their entire lifetime of usually hard work, that have it all taken away when a health crisis happens.

Three systems.


Every other advanced, industrialized nation has some form of single payer / comprehensive / universal health coverage. Even some lesser advanced nations do as well.

And here’s the kicker : They are all HEALTHIER and have longer lives than people here in the USA.


( I know Ted….confuse them with facts ! )


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A copy of the SB 810 bill is available for download here:

http://info.sen.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=sb_810&sess=CUR&house=B%20&site=sen


The bill incorporates the following features:


Security – Everyone is covered. No one will ever lose coverage for any reason.


Choice – Everyone can choose their doctors and other providers. Under this single payer plan, health care delivery is in the private sector.


Comprehensive Benefits – Everyone has full benefits that include prescription drug coverage and mental health care.


High Quality – Doctors and patients, not administrators, make medical decisions. Hospitals can afford safe staffing levels for registered nurses. Primary and preventive care are priorities.


Efficient Administration – Huge savings result from removing insurance companies from health care. Provider and patient paper work is slashed.


Fair Cost sharing – Employers and employees pay a modest health care premium, which is less than most pay now.


Fair Reimbursement – Providers receive fair and full compensation for their services.


Cost Controls – Health care inflation is controlled by efficient administration, global health care budgets, bulk purchases of drugs and durable medical equipment, coordination of capital expenditures, and linkage to growth of the State Gross Domestic Product.


Sounds too good to be true! Nah, this must be a dream. Someone has to pick this healthcare bill apart, and maybe the ones that have Healthcare stock that profit off of the sick should be the first to do so!


Can we see the big Pharma and the California Healthcare lobbyists lining up to kill this bill? Sure we can! Arnold vetoed it twice! Making a PROFIT on an individual dying of cancer is more important because the stock holders of Blue Cross/ Wellpoint must get that new BMW 750i next year! SICKENING!!!


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Everything I read in your post is described in feel-good generalities. Experience has taught me that all of the ugly specific truth is buried underneath, only to be revealed later.


“We have to vote to approve it, before we can find out what is actually in it.” (excuse the loose quote)


Sound familiar?


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sloweb,


Uh, with all due respect, this is the reason that I gave you a link to the entire bill at the top of my post for you and others to read it’s content to decide the “alleged ugly” truth within!


Does this concept of showing actual facts instead of assertions and hearsay sound familar?


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I’ve lived in Taiwan for 7 years and can testify to the benefits of a single payer system listed above. I felt more human living there as a foreigner than I do here in my own country that hangs the threat of bankruptcy, poor health and even death over the heads of our sick and those suffering from unfortunate accidents. HEALTHCARE IS YOUR HUMAN RIGHT!!! If you don’t agree, please let me know who from your family, or which one of your friends you’d like to see go without care…


Finally, what seems most crazy to me when seeing people comment against single payer, is that they will most likely be paying less than they are paying for health care now. In the US, we spend twice as much per capita than any other nation that offers universal health care and we are still not even close to number one in care.


Thanks Ted for your posts and I wish Californians the best of luck getting this bill passed; we’re working hard in Oregon on this too…just a matter of time and education


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Since there seems to be a Repub/TeaParty faction that’s totally opposed to a decent, affordable Health Care Program, I suggest they be given an opt-out option – as long as they understand that the option is a “LifeTime” one with no opportunity to opt in when

reality strikes. Fair enough?


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YES, PLEASE!!!

I am not a republican or a TeaParty member, but I am competent. I would love to meet my own responsibilities and provide my own services, as long as i am not FORCED to pay for others that I don’t specifically choose to (ie family).


Truthfully, there are very few, if any, things that the Govt provides to me that I could not do a better cheaper job.


A growing number of people NEED the Govt to take care of them. I do not.


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Okee-Dokee. Then , when you get sick, oir have a catastrophic accident, or just age into infirmity; then, when your money runs out and charity is exhausted…we can just put you on an ice floe and set you out to sea.


Not many ice floes around here, though.


Less tragic would be if you avoided those possible outcomes, and just move now to an objectivist utopia where all of your fellow supermen can strut around and do whatever the h3ll you want with no consequences.


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“Less tragic would be if you avoided those possible outcomes, and just move now to an objectivist utopia where all of your fellow supermen can strut around and do whatever the h3ll you want with no consequences.”


Give them Texas. We can erect a big fence so we don’t have to see them as they will have shorter lifespans and personally It will be depressing seeing things going backwards as the infant mortality goes back up to the 1800s rates. Although we can’t make it sound proof we could perhaps line it with cork or something like that help buffer the sounds of all the gunfire because you know they will all be carrying guns around and there won’t be any laws. With no govt. we had better make that buffer fence fireproof as without fire departments they’ll be back to using bucket brigades. We could do without them.


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Who’s “we”? I don’t see any crowds hanging around you.


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I’m sure that at least one person would agree with me. Or perhaps I’m British.


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sloweb,


You can provide your own highway from SLO to San Francisco if you decide to go up there?

You can provide your own fire department too? Wow!


Are you the reincarnation of Superman?! LOL


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Road? Well actually, sorta yes. I have farm equipt and maintain all of the roads on my property. Fire protection? Well, yeah. Already have water storage, generator, city water. Combined with a heavy dose of common sense, I would take my chances against a 1 hour response time from the people that I am forced to pay.


SlowerFaster – do you forget that charity begins at home? Have you forgotten that family used to take care of family, instead of the welfare State taking care of us? And yes, I have saved $$ so that when I can’t do for myself, I don’t have to rely on the next generation to pay my health care.


No offense to anyone here, but most city folks don’t typically have any clue as to the self-reliant abilities that most rural people have. Like I said, modern society is becoming more and more dependent upon Govt for all of their needs, but there are some of us that don’t need or want it.


I am amazed that people here (Typical, I assume of SLO urban) have little understanding of what people can do for themselves. If you think about it, none of the examples that you’ve cited “Well, can you do THIS for yourself?” is at all difficult.


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“Self-reliance” seems to be important to you -and by your description it appears that you are indeed “self-reliant” in terms of your present life.

It will only take one health catastrophe -say a stroke – where your self-reliance could vanish. Or a decade of cancer, debilitating heart disease and the expensive medical treatments that come with chronic illnesses. Then what?

Mind you, 2 and 1/2 days in the cardiac ward will run you something like $85,000 these days.


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I’m sure he has made enough money to cover any medical catastrophes that he might incur. I would imagine that $85K is a drop in the bucket. I wonder if that covers the doc bills, radiologist, meds etc. would drive.


I had a family member that sadly died of leukemia. He was just a teen it was horribly sad. Thank goodness his parents had good state insurance because his bills ran into the millions of dollars. But I’m sure that Mr. Self reliant would have no problem with that. I wonder what kind of insurance he has.


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You mean, good private insurance through the state.


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Call it what you want, most of us can’t afford it.


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On that $85K, there were a few additional fees. Follow-up after release from the hospital was pricey too -as were the multiple prescription co-pays.


French Hospital’s in the ACO trial. I’m just trying to get informed on that – but it’s basically an attempt to deliver quality care at more reasonable prices. I’m interested to find out if it’s aimed at killing Single Payer – or if it’s to explore how well SP would work. On the surface, it looks as if it implements Single Payer.


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Geesh, you guys!

Die of Cancer? or Stroke? Yeah maybe. Everyone dies. I am OK with that. I value myself on what I have done while I was living.


BTW, has anyone showed up to a doctors office or a medical facility and said “I need this service. I don’t have Insurance, but I will pay you cash right here in the amount of Medicare reimbursement.” ?? Majority of the time that works.


TQ, I know you will be relieved to know that I do have private high deductible health insurance, I pay for it myself. I am by no means wealthy, just capable and competent.


BTW, this whole conversation is related to what most sociologists agree is the trend (not so much for the better) in our society – lack of responsibility. We too often want to blame others for our status, want to be provided for and look for it to be someone else’s fault.


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Okay, Zaphod. Does this mean you’re going to operate on yourself if you need surgery?


I like your comments, at any rate…..


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What a load of BS. I’m self employed, we’ve been employing others for over 20 years, my family is very responsible and we work very hard. You don’t get it. Many of us are one check from bankruptcy and not because we haven’t been responsible it’s because of medical bills. I have insurance, my medical issues were not due to being irresponsible.


It’s not the state employee or the construction worker that’s been working for 10 years at the same job that was recently laid off due to cutbacks fault that they lose their home or/and can’t pay for med insurance/bills.That’s not called being irresponsible, it’s just what happens with the republicans have their way. If you lose your job and get sick or if you can’t afford sky high insurance then tough sh2t for you, just die. How did you put it, oh yeah “everyone dies”. Thank goodness not everyone is like you. Can your fruit, live on your farm, slop your pigs, churn your butter that’s all fine and dandy, just sit back let us run the rest of the country. I know I know, you’re not a repub right?


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Ouch.


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60% of bankruptcies in America are caused by medical bills…and more than half of those people had insurance!!! Is this American exceptionalism? No other developed nation lets this happen to their citizens, except America…food for thought


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Just curious. Do you receive any farm subsidies?

Any tax benefits due to the way in which you hold your land?


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Heavens no. I never said I was a farmer (my family was in the farming business elsewhere in the state). I live in the country and I practice self reliance and independence to best of my abilities.

Sorry……


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Okay. So it appears you’re just a self sufficient guy.

who works either for himself or a boss of some kind.

You don’t need single payer healthcare.


So how come you don’t want anyone else to have it?

Can you tell us in 25 words or less?


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Brook (25 words or less) I don’t want to pay for what I don’t use.


[25 word limit off]


A few days ago some people thought that is was proper for the State to impose a specific tax for fire protection on me because I live in a rural area. They did not think that they should share the increased cost to cover me because I live in a rural more-expensive-to-protect area.


Now those same people want me to pay for their health care services that I don’t use.


Trying to have it both ways, based on how it benefits you, is disingenuous and very revealing of a person’s morals.


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sloweb,


“Truthfully, there are very few, if any, things that the Govt provides to me that I could not do a better cheaper job.”


Since you were silent upon my government provided highway question, and since there is no “sorta” involved when using said highway system, then when you do leave the Ponderosa to gain supplies, or having to visit a city far away, please tell us how you would provide your OWN highway system!


Thanks.


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^^^^^


sloweb remains SILENT to the above absolute statement directed to him because he cannot provide for himself in this act, therefore, he cannot do a better job than the government in supplying a highway system for him to drive upon!


sloweb fails his own proposition.


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Very libertarian attitude, and the dumbest thing I’ve heard since the last repo ‘debate’. Give us a break; you insinuate you could built better roads, provide public safety in police and fire protection, you could inspect the quality of the food your family eats, the quality of their medicines? You could inspect ports and air traffic for smuggling and criminal movement? You could verify the honesty and competence of financial institutions, you could mediate international trade and tariffs? Christ, what planet are you on? You talk like a spoiled child who ‘knows it all’.

Face it, you don’t know jack, and probably can’t do it either. You might know a few things, and can do a few things; big deal. This society needs a million jobs done.

ALL insurance plans depend on a large number of clients not using the benefits, so that those who do will have plenty of resources to meet their needs. Again, you talk like an idiot.


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sloweb,

After reading your posts, I had to ask what like of work you’re in. If you’re not a government worker–which is the only job that pays benefits in SLO County–I figured you had to be in real estate or construction. I forgot “agriculture.” Which brings us back to government subsidies and undocumented, cheap labor. This is just a rhetorical question but, did you ever benefit by using these “subsidies”? No need to answer here, because if you really are in agriculture, then I already know the answer.


Now that’s out of the way, what do you propose is the solution to achieve universal health care? A living minimum wage? Insurance based on ability to pay? A flat percentage deduction from payroll? Non-payment for “catestrophic illnesses” such as cancer? No preventative health care coverage? “I would love to meet my own responsibilities and provide my own services,” too. I was both raised to do this, and educated to do this. But unfortunately, restaurant workers and substitute teachers, who often do the hardest work for the least amount of money, do not receive health care benefits. Nor are they paid wages which can pay for rent and health care, too. Try paying rent, sloweb, and pay for health insurance, too.


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Oto, I appreciate your genuine interest in my personal beliefs. But this is not the topic at hand. My only point was that there are some people that believe in providing their own and not being on the public teat in one way or another. I am honestly surprised that people here question that old fashioned concept.


I would be happy to sit down with you, over a beer, and discuss philosophies.


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The problem with your claims are that you are wrong. You do live “on the public teat”. We question you because that is simply disingenuous. Are you going to claim as Ted pointed out that you don’t use our roadways? I remember another poster that tried to claim that they were completely self reliant but just as with you it just didn’t add up. Perhaps you’ve never flown in an airplane, called the police, used the roadways,needed the fire dept., been to the DMV, attended a public school, driven a car, eaten food from the market, but I’m sure that I’m not alone at seeing the BS alert light flashing in your posts.


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Go back and read my original posts. I never said that I lived off the grid, in a cave, with horse and buggy. You and others have tried to turn it into that.

1) I have flown in planes – I paid for those trips, the Govt did not.

2) I have never called the cops

3) Of course I use the roadways, I pay for them thru fuel taxes. If the roads were not there, i would still be able to get done what I need to.

4) I have never called the fire dept

5) I go to the DMV, because the law requires me. I would be happy not to.

6) I buy most of my food at the market – I pay for it. I don’t use food stamps or expect the Govt to pay for it. If there were no markets, i would be able to feed myself.


Why is it so hard to believe? Seriously? nothing I have said is unusual or exceptional. People all over this country and world wide live the same way. Maybe not so much in SLO, I guess.


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You made it safely to your destination on that plane thanks to the govt..


I get it, you’re an island, you don’t think that you need anyone ie the cops but what about the people that need cops, do you only care about yourself? But in reality you do use those cops. They make society safer. When you drove to that airport on those safe govt. roads you may feel a bit safer knowing that cops are keeping those roads safer for you and your family even if you don’t have direct contact with them.


You’ve been lucky that you’ve never had a fire but what about those that have? Lets say that a fireman saved your childs doctor, that directly comes back to you, that doctor might save your childs life it’s all part of that connection. You might not think that you need these things but in reality you do.


No one is forcing you to get a drivers license BTW.


You may thank the govt. for having one of the most safest if not the most safe food supplies in the world when you do visit that market. Even if you grow your own, not everyone is in a position to do that. That doesn’t make them any less of a valuable person, that person adds to society in a different way and their existence is important to you, you just don’t’ know it.


It’s like I was just discussing with brook. We are all connected. What you do doesn’t just affect you. Just because we have different experiences we all depend on each other. You might not feel connected but you are. You might not want to pay for those less fortunate to have medical care but by cooperating and helping our neighbors that’s what makes a strong society. I was watching a football game today. One thing that makes a team strong is working together. If the quarterback said, ‘I don’t need the rest of you’ then the team would fall apart.


Okay, this topic is getting burnt out. Either you get it our don’t. My family needs affordable health care and so does my neighbors family. As someone else said, it’s a human right. I’m sure that if I did some creative manipulation of the Constitution like the gun lobby does that I could make the right to health care a constitutional right as well.


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Sorry that was so long, these things don’t seem long when I’m typing them out. I guess that I get carried away.


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No need to apologize. There are folks here who either don’t get it because they don’t want to get it – maybe a few astro-turfers and maybe a few who will do some independent research and discover for themselves that you are right all along about the need for a decent single payer health program.


Counting “Dislikes” on certain posts reveals a lot.


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Two problems: (1) Would California be allowed to opt out of Obamacare at this point. (2) California has no residency requirements. This means that anyone who sets foot in California would be eligible for the single-payer health care. What is to prevent people from all over the US to come here for expensive operations. What is to prevent people from all over the world to come here for expensive operations. Nothing. A health care program that might work for the people here in the state, without restrictions, could overwhelm our doctors, hospitals, and our state economically if presented as free medical care for everyone in the world who can drive or fly in. How would you feel about waiting 1-5 years for an operation because you are in line behind out of state residents and people from foreign countries, rich or poor?


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They could just as easily go to Mexico or india and get operations at one tenth the costs. Nobody is going to come to California for cheaper health care. You are blinded by your perception of exceptionalism. Poor people will not migrate to California for health care any more than they migrate to Hawaii which already has universal health care, In fact More people are migrating OUT of the US for affordable healthcare than are migrating in.

I know if I needed an operation that could wait a while I’d save a lot of money by buying a first class ticket to Guadalajara and getting a single room with my own nurse over paying for it in the US


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Vagabond, inaccuracies in your logic:

1) Very few people think that there are better doctors, on the whole, in Mexico or India.

2) Waaaay cheaper to live in Calif without means than in Hawaii – invalid comparison.

3) The people moving out of Calif are the ones that are, in general, producers of GDP. Statically, the ones moving are not.

4) There are more employers that are moving production out of CA and the US because of continuing Govt burdens (did you read the $200 billion annual cost to citizens part?) than are moving out to find better or cheaper healthcare.


Please cite truth, not rhetoric.


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Back to health care, sloweb. I think your simple point is, “I don’t want to pay for what I don’t use.” Seems logical, but isn’t our entire system of government built upon the premise that everyone should contribute to things which we all need and use in common, such as schools, roads, transportation, health care?


Is it possible to “opt out” of health care? Wouldn’t that put you in the same category as the poor, who don’t pay into the health care system because they have nothing? I can see your logic to a point. But when you carry it through to it’s natural conclusion then that means if you were to be involved in a car accident (God forbid,) and be rushed to a trauma center (which we all pay for,) can you be denied care and left on your own because you “opted out?”


How does that work for you? You can be the most careful driver, and still be involved in an accident because you cannot control everything.


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Yes, back to Healthcare. Thank you. And thank you for your civility in discussing the topic instead of the petty name calling and forum trolling.


A minimal level of schooling has been a common provision for hundreds of years. Initially the interstate infrastructure was started by Govt, but is paid for mostly by the fuel taxes. Bridges are very often toll bridges paid by the people that use them. Other forms of transportation (buses, trains, subways etc are paid for by the people that use them..

When did healthcare become an inalienable right? And what level of healthcare are you entitled to? We provide a certain level of free schooling. We already have a minimal level of free healthcare to those that can not afford it. It is called medical and Medicare.

What’s next? Housing? Housing is certainly as necessary to life as healthcare.


Now, to your personal questions:

1) Yes I would prefer to opt out as long as I don’t have to pay for everyone elses. It would not put me in the same category as the poor because I pay for and manage my own health care.


2) And if I was in an accident and taken to a Trauma Center ( I think they are paid for by the people that use them) and if I did not have insurance (I do) and they did not want to treat me, I am OK with that. [waiting for TQ to call me a liar again]. To feel otherwise would be two-faced and hypocritical.


It all boils down to whether or not you think you can do a better job of providing and managing your own risks, livelihood, retirement, healthcare etc. In my case, I do.


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“waiting for TQ to call me a liar again”


I believe that I said that either you were misinformed or else you are a liar. I also believe that was in regards to plastic grocery bags being corn based as apposed to petroleum based.


Regarding the health care issue, it won’t work unless everyone pays. You are very lucky that you haven’t had any major health issues and that you somehow have good health coverage. You haven’t explained how you have such great health care but good for you, I’m happy for you, consider yourself privileged. Most middle class people can’t afford good health care coverage unless they are lucky enough to a job that provides but these days it’s getting hard to find those jobs and that doesn’t make us irresponsible (as you insinuated). Even the govt. is starting to cut back on benefits for govt. employees.


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“Regarding the health care issue, it won’t work unless everyone pays.”


Wrong, it won’t work at all.


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I wonder how many companies moved abroad because of the financial burdens of doing business in the nation with the highest healthcare expenditures in the world? Strange how other nations can provide universal healthcare at half of what we spend and still produce superior health statistics.


Bottom line, our outrageous healthcare costs are what’s killing jobs.


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after viewing this brief video clip Id be a little carefull about going south for care


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/13/medics-drop-donor-heart_n_1204257.html?1326465779&icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-sb-bb%7Cdl5%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D127318


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Hospitals along the East Coast, esp. in Florida and hospital centers in Texas and along the Gulf Coast already have the problem of foreign nationals flying in and presenting themselves at hospitals needing surgeries but having no money to pay.


Medical tourism (when foreign patients can pay) is a big business for Thailand and India, but remember we are offering “free” care. We will be flooded with people coming in for free care at Stanford and UCLA, and other well known hospitals. Locals who are sent to the hospital centers when local care is not adequate, simply won’t be able to get in.


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Sorry, citizen. I don’t believe this for a minute. Where are you getting your facts from? I doubt that we have a “problem of foreign nationals flying in and presenting themselves at hospitals needing surgeries but having no money to pay…Medical tourism…We will be flooded with people coming in for free care at Stanford and UCLA…” I’m waiting for a few citations to these “facts.”


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Foreigners are already doing that. They are parasites. They are taking money and medical care away from you. And they don’t give a damn about you.


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Hawaii does NOT have universal health care. They have a program that makes employers pay for an employee that works more than 20 hours a week. Most oif my freinds have multiple jobs, none offering more than 20 hours a week. The family I have there that does work full time, doesn’t get paid 1/2 of what we get paid here, because he employer factors in the crap insurance they have there. They just had 4 hospitals close in the last 2 weeks because the government wasn’r reimbursing fast enough, or discounting the fees too much. Now there is a doctor shortgae in Hawaii, and the idiot politicians were talking about passing a law forbidding doctors to leave. REALLY!! This is what happens with stupid people who want others to pay for them, and then cry when other responsible people don’t want to pay for them. Hawaii health care, sounds real good huh?


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Got links?


P.S. The job situation in Hawaii sounds exactly like SLO’s.


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Of course! A POLICE STATE is based on CONTROL. Can’t let them damn doctors leave and go where the grass is greener!


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Nonsense! Only the RICH are migrating out of CA. The poor are migrating IN!


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Have you got the link to the statistics on that?


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Links to the statistics??? Are you kidding? I see this happening on the ground!


Have you read any books by Jim Rogers? Try Adventure Capitalist: The Ultimate Road Trip.


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So, in other words you don’t have anything to back what you say. Okay.


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Are you blind? Go back and read what I wrote.


I have more to back up what I say than you would ever have time to read, even if you were eager, which you are ARE NOT.


That’s the point. You don’t pay any attention to the links I post anyway. So, why should I bother? They don’t “resonate” with you. Too bad.


You know why books are like mirrors? No matter how long an ass stares at them, only an ass stares back.


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Ya, go down to the local foodbank and see who is in line.


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Prob 1, California would probably get a waiver like Vermont.


Prob 2, This is why it’s important to get universal healthcare in other states. Vermont lead the way, California could be next and I’m working hard in Oregon to get it. It’s only a matter of time before we realize that our current healthcare nonsystem is unsustainable and will need to be greatly changed to include everyone and at a lower cost. I wouldn’t worry much about people coming from abroad to use the services. Most likely if they can pay to arrive in California, they can afford to get quality care at home. Finally, I lived in Taiwan for 7 years and they have a single payer system with doctors and technology that are no less than our own. I can honestly say that I waited less over there than I do here (and I’m a type 1 diabetic so I routinely visit the doctors).


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I read an article about a year or so ago that said that anyone can receive care in Taiwan, even if you’re from another country. The article also said that it costs $85.00 dollars to get an MRI (with state of the art equipment). You don’t need to make an appointment and they don’t allow anyone to wait more than an hour. The ‘Minister of Health’, well can’t remember the title so I’m making that one up, it was who ever is in charge of how the health care operates said that they were thinking of raising that $85.00 to $100.00 and that it’s against their countries policy or even law to make patients wait more than an hour for service and as I said that’s even without an appointment. I penciled it out and it would be cheaper to fly to Taiwan to have an MRI than to have one done at a local hospital. From what I’ve read Taiwan would be great model for our country.


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Well said, Citizen. But it’s worse. The situation has ALREADY reached that stage.


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