Gun-packing issue heads for high court

December 17, 2012

A heated debate on the “rights” of Americans to be armed in public may be drawing closer to scrutiny from the U.S. Supreme Court. (San Francisco Chronicle)

The argument, which has been wending its way through lower courts, takes on new meaning in the wake of last week’s tragedy in Connecticut in which 26 people were killed by a heavily-armed, mentally disturbed youth.

Such an examination may be prompted by a controversial recent decision by a federal appeals court panel in Chicago which tossed out a statewide ban on carrying concealed weapons.

That ruling contrasted with numerous other appeals court-level decisions which generally have supported gun-control efforts by local and state jurisdictions. Contrasting rulings set the stage for high court consideration.

About 40 states currently allow public gun carrying, excluding California, New York, and a few others where laws and regulation curtail the practice.

Wayne LaPierre, chief executive officer of the National Rifle Association, remains adamant about what he considers “a God-given right.”

“The only thing to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” he told reporters recently.


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Crusader

For those honestly not aware of the gun control provisions that already in force here in California, I invite you to take a look at these flowcharts:


For rifles AKA “assault weapons”:


http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf


For handguns:


http://www.calguns.net/caawid/hgflowchart.pdf


For shotguns:


http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf


Just look at the flowchart for rifles! All of this is nothing more than a bunch of ineffective garbage. Nothing more than a lot of wasteful and dangerous politics.


unlisted

Who gives a ___ what the gun laws are in California. You may not have noticed, but this article is about the US Supreme Court and the recent child murder spree in Connecticut. California laws are irrelevant to both. So long as wackos can buy assault weapons anywhere in the US, they can bring them into California, illegal or not. Consequently, we would all be a little safer if assault weapons were banned nationwide.


Crusader

Don’t be naive. California is a leader in “gun control” and has been for over 20 years. There is absolutely no proof that gun control laws make things any safer. Your belief is unfounded.


r0y

Wasn’t it Boxer or Feinstein that said when the assault weapons ban sunset occurs, violent gun crimes would double or triple? That never happened. I wonder what she thinks now.


Crusader

To be honest, I think Feinstein is beginning to wonder about her legacy. She’s been a wasted government paycheck for decades. She now sees a chance to “redeem” herself before she retires. Sadly she has no idea how foolish and craven she looks, nor does she have any idea how hard the fight is ultimately going to be. She’s going to lose…


easymoney

First off, there is already a waiting period and background check for anyone buying a firearm, legally. “Wackos”, can not buy weapons, legally…

Second, adding more laws is not going to solve the problem. And the problem isn’t the guns, it’s the wackos who act out insanely.

Over 300 million guns are legally owned in the USA, tens of millions of legal gun owners use those guns without mishap or misbehavior.

But, if one looks at all of the most recent past mass killings, they all were perpetrated by peoples of similar sick mental capacity, they were all known to be sick or acting strangely about prior to their killing spree and nothing was done, and most of these sad events took place at “gun free zones” in wealthy large communities.


willieslo

I interper the right to bear arms as unambiguous meaning I can carry a firearm on my body, anytime instead of the twisted concocked interpretation of anti-gun activist / politicians where you can only own a gun kept in your safe at home.


Crusader

It’s both sad and insulting to hear the politically-motivated calls for increased gun control following the massacre in Newtown, Connecticut. Gun control doesn’t work. That’s something that has been proven for decades. America needs to get serious about reducing violent crime. The last thing it needs are more ineffective attempts at gun control that are nothing but easy, “feel good”, “at least I am doing something” political maneuvers that take the focus off of actions that could actually help to reduce crime.


American needs to face the fact that somewhere between 150-300M firearms now exist in the USA. Even if it were constitutionally legal you cannot rid the USA of firearms. It’s high time to focus on the criminals and not on the guns.


America needs to start rigorously enforcing the 20K+ firearms laws already on the books.


America as a nation must face the mental health issues that plague its citizens. Effectively recognizing and treating mental illness would be a huge step forward in addressing all crime in the US. Take a look at this short read on how a mother struggles to control her mentally impaired son. He is precisely the sort of person that one day will commit heinous crimes if he does not receive serious help: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html


America needs to review the horrific gun-related violence depicted in movies, television and gaming. It needs to review the effects of violent “sports” such as MMA on its people.


America needs to license sane, law-abiding and well trained citizens (including teachers) who wish to legally carry concealed firearms to protect themselves and their families and friends.


America needs to train all of its citizens on the safe handling and storage of firearms. We have been taught to fear and hate firearms when we should be trained to understand and respect them as we were in past generations.


America needs to stop creating “gun free zones” that end up as de-facto killing fields. We need to face the fact that criminals/mentally ill do not follow the law.


Secular America needs to stop vilifying those with faith. Not all have received the gift of faith but those that have should not be crucified for trying to live a life led by God and not by materialism and decadence.


Most of all we Americans need to look inwardly at themselves. At the hideous, materialistic, morally relevant cesspool that we now call “American culture.”


There are many more actions that need to be taken. And the need to be taken on a continuous basis. More “gun control” is certainly not one of them.


IronHub

Crusader — Mike Huckabee blames this incident on “Godless schools,” and the basics of your argument, particularly about “secular America,” are just as wacky. For each moment you sound balanced, there are two more where your thoughts reflect the same kind of insanity that perpetuates these tragedies.


Crusader

My comments are “wacky” because you say so? You do realize how silly that sounds, right?


There is more than one practical reason why the world (and not just the US) is so much more violent today. In any event it’s that increase in violence (be it a product of untreated mental health, etc.) that is to blame for the increase in gun-related violence and not guns themselves.


Lack of faith in God and a turn to materialism has certainly had a hugely negative impact on the entire world, yet there have always been good agnostics and atheists. So what’s the difference? I think the big thing that has changed (particularly in the USA) is the continued marginalization and outright persecution of those with faith by both government and the militantly secular.


I suspect that is slowly changing (everything tends to go in cycles) and the more that it does, the more a resurgence of faith in our daily lives will help to combat the evil in this world that drives the sort of violence under discussion.


IronHub

One hundred-fold more gun-related murders in the good ol’ U.S. of A. than in any other industrialized nation in the world. Proud of that fact, Crusader?


Crusader

Until you are able to constructively add to this important discussion you can expect to be ignored.


zaphod

There is more than one practical reason why the world (and not just the US) is so much more violent today.

not true. :Pinker


Pelican1

Sadly, those of you who oppose gun control, have the blood of there precious children on YOUR hands.

This is an American tragedy, one that NEVER should have happened. It’s nothing more than domestic terrorism perpetrated by the lack of gun control in a culture that glorifies violence.

It is simply shameful.


Crusader

How do you know? In any event, stop using tragedies to push your anti-gun agenda.


All is does it take the focus away from things that really could make a difference. More attention to mental health. More attention to gun violence in movies, television and in gaming. More issuing of concealed firearm carry permits to sane, law-abiding citizens so they can protect themselves and their families. More attention to educating Americans on the safe operation and storage of firearms. Americans have been taught to fear/hate firearms when they should be educated to understand and respect them.


Attempts at “gun control” over the past 20+ year have proven to be nothing more than a political “feel good”, “at least I doing something” sideshow and it needs to stop.


Pelican1

Then STOP the pro gun carnage!


Pelican1

What attempt? There has been none. No, YOU need to stop supporting this insatiable desire to own firearms, when 1/2 of you are NUTS!


Crusader

Please gain control of your emotions. You need to make a serious effort to actually understand that which you comment about.


Here in California there has been more than one attempt at gun control in California beginning with the Roberti-Roos “Assault Weapons” Control Act of 1989. Each attempt has been painfully ignorant, political and thoroughly ineffective. We now have more than two decades of actual data that demonstrates that attempts at gun control does not deter crime.


What do you bring to the table except emotion?


Zuma7

Crusader, you sound like you know alot about guns. I wish I did. In the last couple of years I’ve been thinking about getting one. I so agree with what you are saying, it doesn’t matter how many laws we will have concerning gun control, the nut-cases and outlaws will find a way to get them. If they want a gun to do harm, they aren’t going to care if there are laws or not.


Crusader

40-50 years ago California was among the most pro-gun/pro-sport hunting states in the union. Students learned firearms safety in school, in 4H, Cub/Boy Scouts, Campfire Girls, etc. Hunting and the shooting sports were extremely popular and well respected It was very common across the USA for families to display their firearms (many being family heirlooms) in fine cabinets the dens and living rooms.


And firearms-related massacres like the one in Newtown, Connecticut were unheard of.


The difference? Gun control? Absolutely not! By far the most important thing is that families were largely intact — remember the father, mother, kids and often grandparents living under one roof model? The elders taught the youngers. They took care of one another. They worshiped and prayed together. They were family!


All people learned about guns (“learning to shoot” was a rite of passage for almost all boys and many girls) and grew-up respecting them. They were not taught to fear and hate them as so many are today.


Gun control was not a political football. People like Dianne Feinstein were not making ego-feeding careers out of trying to pass gun control measures. Simply put, times were better.


Anyway, if you have any questions about guns, let me know what you want one, whether it’s for home defense, possible concealed carry or sporting purposes and I would be happy to point you in the right direction.


stopagenda21

Pelica1


just plain wrong


Pelican1

Typical of the response I expected. God help you.


Crusader

You are wrong. You come on here spewing emotion in the hope that it will lead to increased “gun control.” You want increased gun control because you feel helpless, you don’t understand the roots of violence and you want to do something to make yourself feel better under the guise of making things safer for all.


People like you are a big reason why the root causes of violent crime don’t get addressed in the USA. Please make an effort to educate yourself on this matter.


Mikayla

Very well said.


slojustice

You know who has the blood on her hands? The little coward and his totally irresponsible mother who knew her son was mentally ill and she had those unsecured guns in her house. Shame on her and anyone who owns guns and does not store them properly. It makes it really hard on us responsible gun owners who take that ownership seriously and do the right thing. This whole thing is not a gun thing, it is a mental illness issue.

For those of you who think “who needs semi-auto’s and 30 round magazines. I do and any responsible citizen who wants them. Our founding fathers intention was for the citizens of our great Country to have the ability to fight a tyrannical government. I am a law abiding citizen, I have not done anything wrong. If you do not think our freedoms have been attacked in the last thirty years you are mistaken. Without the second amendment you cannot protect the rest of the amendments in our Constitution. It really sickens me when I see the knee jerk reactions of our media and elected officials. Connecticut has the fifth most strict gun laws in the nation. More gun control is not gong to do anything to prevent this in the future. I have written my Congressman and Senators to give a tax credit of up to $2500.00 for citizens to purchase gun safes and to hold people that do not store weapons properly responsible when their weapons are used in a crime. If they truly want to do something effective they need to follow the Constitution and put our money where their mouth is. My heart truly goes out to the parents and survivors and also the first responders who had to witness and clean up after this tragedy. So pelican 1, put your big girl or boy pants on and quit looking for someone to blame


cosmos7

So then by your logic the school shooting in Sweden that killed 8, or the school shooting in Germany that killed 16 should never have happened… you certainly can’t accuse those countries of having a gun culture that glorifies violence.


Even if you were able to eliminate guns entirely, crazy people will always find a way… like the very recent Chinese school stabbing that wounded 22 children.


willieslo

“Sadly, those of you who oppose gun control, have the blood of there precious children on YOUR hands.”


Tell this to the criminals and mentally ill, as well as those “helpless victims” being shot and other citizens helpless to do anything except to flee or HOPE the police arrives in the next few seconds!


Downtown Bob

The deadliest school killing happened in 1927 and was carried out by a deranged killer using dynamite and other explosives up in Michigan. In Isreal, the terrorists wear explosive vests on busses killing many at a time. It is a society problem, not a gun problem. Many other instances of violence have happened without the use of firearms. I propose we have designated school officials and teachers trained to protect and defend our school children in a responsible manner. Gun free zones only promote the feeling of invincibility by a deranged killer no matter what weapon of mass destruction they happen to choose that day.


danika

Jim Jones used Koolaid. Al Qeada used our own planes. Timothy McVay used vehicles. Do we have blood on our hands for not banning these too?


Ted Slanders

Wayne LaPierre was correct in stating that it is a “God given right” to use guns for self-defense!


None other than Jesus the Christ encourages his disciples to sell a coat and “buy a sword” for self defense. (Luke 22:35-38). Today, a sword would equal a 357mag, therefore, can’t you picture Jesus walking around with this type of gun? Sure you can. Who in the hell does the Supreme Court think they are if they want to go directly against the word of Jesus concerning self-defense?


In further concordance with biblical self-defense; “If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.” (Exodus 22:2-3)


Within the passage above, for instance, you are thus blameless if the criminal is killed in that situation with your favorite 45ACP. The passage does make it clear that if a man is breaking in at night with the intent of theft, or worse, rape, murder, kidnapping, etc., the defendant can righteously defend himself with lethal force to prevent the commission of the crime with no questions asked, praise God!


If the sun has risen upon him while breaking in, it is assumed that the intention of the intruder can be discerned. If he is a thief, in this case, the intruder is there to commit a different crime like assault, and maybe murder, kidnapping, rape, etc., then different laws and rules would apply. Though the crime of theft is not worthy of death biblically, kidnapping and murder was! (Exodus 21:16, Deut. 24:7)


Who stated the above axioms of self-defense that the true Christian is to follow? The WORD OF GOD, that’s who! “Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” ( Proverbs 30:5-6 )


God, guns, and guts built this nation, let no Supreme Court usurp God’s word and take it away!


http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3311/424725094c4cbbba5b5.jpg


RU4Real

There is NO NEED for “civilians” so have “assault weapons”…these should be for police & military only. I’ve heard the comment that people use “assault” rifles for HUNTING…THAT, is such a crock! Back in the day, my father was a “hunter” (for food) and at no time did he EVER NEED an “assault rifle”…He was an exceptional marksman & used a rifle with a scope, we never went without meat!


Crusader

Stop with the “assault weapons” rhetoric. An “assault weapon” is by definition a select-fire automatic machinegun. They have been under federal control since 1934. They are essentially impossible for Californians to own. Semiautomatic rifles on the other hand have been legal and used for hunting since their invention more than 100 years ago. Please also don’t infer that the Second Amendment exists so that people can hunt. That’s pure garbage. It exists so that citizens can resist a tyrannical government.


SpeakTruth

You are absolutely correct about the purpose of the 2nd Amendment. It states “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” Did you read that RU4Real? The 2nd Amendment exists for the sole purpose of arming the people with the necessary tools to preserve and protect freedom.


RU4Real

Then TELL ME “Crusader”, WHY IS IT THERE ARE SO MANY ASSAULT WEAPONS on the streets? YOU do not know what YOU ARE talking about…It’s ALL about removing assault type weapons & YOU know it…


SpeakTruth

Civilians absolutely DO NEED “assault weapons” and it has nothing to do with hunting. Every gun has its place. You won’t see me trying to conceal carry my AR15 around town, but you can bet your ass when I hear glass shatter in the middle of the night, that burglar is going to find himself on the wrong end of a 5.56, not some .22 pistol that you think would be great for poppin’ squirrels. When law and order breaks down (it has happened in this country before and it will happen again) I’ll be defending my life, my family, and my property with it. Why an assault rifle? Because it’s not meant for hunting game, it’s sole purpose is to preserve the life of the person holding it, and they are damn good at doing so.


dogeatdog

Why do people need to have gun with clips that hold 30 or more bullets?

When our nation decided on the 2nd amendment, guns were loaded,packed and shot, not like today.


I don’t want to take away someones right to bear arms, but I would like to limit the bullets in a magazine. And I would like to see backround checks at gun shows and events like those. If that feels like you are losing your 2nd amendment rights so be it.


The statement in the article that says the only thing to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun. Then maybe only the police should have guns, not that all of them are good guys either.


I just think after what happened, both sides need to figure out some reasonable guidelines. I doubt we will ever be like Europe where you can’t own a gun and gun violence is almost unheard of.But lets use some common sense on atleast the number of bullets, maybe more children would be alive today.


We will always have guns in the hands of mentally ill people, so lets think what can be done to lessen the harm done if they wish to use a gun in terrible ways.


Crusader

They’re not “clips.” They are “magazines.” The fact you don’t realize that marks you as ignorant from the outset.


Your focus on “clips” is nothing more than a worthless “feel good”, “at least I’m doing something” knee-jerk response. California has endured more than two decades of such attempts at “gun control.” It certainly hasn’t helped reduce crime. All it has done is trigger Californians to buy more guns. Far more.


You want to actually help improve things? Focus on providing mental health services. Focus on firearms safety training for all Americans. Take a hard look at the gun-violence depicted in movies, television and gaming.


Your “clips crusade” does nothing more than to take the focus away from the real problems.


Crusader

With very limited exemptions for antique firearms, background checks and 10 day waiting periods apply to firearms purchased in California from both private parties (must be via a Federal Firearms License holder) and at gun shows.


You comment “maybe only the police should have guns” is chilling. That scenario has proven itself to be a loser in terms of crime. I think permits to carry a concealed firearm should be issued to ALL law-abiding, sane and properly trained citizen who apply for one. States/counties who liberally issue such permits have lower crime rates than those that do not. Further, those states that have went from highly restrictive to shall-issue concealed carry permits have not experienced an increase in crime.


The Gimlet Eye

This massacre was a psy-op perpetrated by government operatives and has nothing whatever to do with the 2nd Amendment.


kettle

It’s official, Gimlet has jumped the shark.


The easier it is to put one’s hands on a gun, the more there will be sad screwed up events happening in our America.


Simple statistics and history.


Crusader

Yet the politically motivated attempts at “gun control” have not shown that they make it any more difficult for criminals/whackos to get their hands on guns.