Front Page  »  

Atheists sue Pismo Beach over city chaplain

November 5, 2013

pismoIn connection with Atheists United San Luis Obispo, the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a nonprofit organization that promotes separation of church and state, sued Pismo Beach last week over its use of a city chaplain. [Tribune]

The lawsuit, filed in San Luis Obispo Superior Court Friday, alleges that Rev. Paul E. Jones, the city’s chaplain, is illegally promoting Christianity during invocations before council meetings. The suit calls for the elimination of both the chaplain position and the practice of praying before meetings.

“What we’re looking for is a judge to tell them to knock it off,” Atheists United San Luis Obispo spokesman David Leidner told the Tribune.

In 2003, the council passed a policy prohibiting sectarian invocations. The council adopted the policy to comply with an appellate ruling that municipal prayer sessions cannot include sectarian deities, such as Jesus Christ.

City Attorney David Fleishman says that Jones, who is affiliated with the Pentecostal Four Square Church, has complied with the policy. But, the suit alleges that Jones has made several Christian references, including “Our Father in Heaven,” “Our Eternal God” and “God, Our Father.”

It also alleges that between Jan. 1, 2008 and Oct. 15, 2013, Christian clergymen delivered 123 of the 126 prayers. Jones delivered 112 of the invocations.

Jones’s Christian references suggest to non-Christians that they are “outsiders at council meetings, are unrepresented in their government and are not full citizens,” the suit states.

 


Loading...
Subjects:             
Related:


95 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments

If prayer really worked, people would pray for amputees to regrow severed limbs. If people in fact ARE praying for this, we have to ask ourselves “Why does god hate amputees?”


0

How about the fact that God gave man the wisdom to develop the medical technology that allows for amputees to wear prosthesis devices? Man sends men off to war, not God.


0

How about the fact that God gave man the wisdom to develop the medical technology that allows for amputees to wear prosthesis devices? Man sends men off to war, not God.

——————–

The excuses Christians put up for their absent God knows no bounds. Again, education is the key as the above argument actually cuts against what the poster argues.


First, do you really think people only lose limbs in war? .


Secondly, man hasn’t always had the medical technology to develop prosthetic devices, so what about the thousands of years before prosthesis? Why didn’t your God step up then?


Thirdly, since when is a prosthetic device equal to a real limb? If your God truly loved his children why wouldn’t he make the person whole?


Fourthly, this was but an example. There are many examples of events such as earthquakes, hurricanes, bubonic plague, polio, malaria, cancer, birth defects etc. etc. that kill 10s of thousand of people every year–events that in your belief system are controlled by your God. By your own logic your God kills many and leaves the saving attempt to man. .


0

Only if one completely does not understand prayer, then yeah!


0

Most of us learn to understand it when we are four. Then some of us grow up.


0

No chaplain of any sect, strain, way, shape or form serves any purpose at any public meeting

and taxpayers should certainly not be footing the bill for such foolishness.


0

Yes, taxpayers have many other more expensive foolishness to foot the bill for. Good point!


0

No chaplain of any sect, strain, way, shape or form should be blessing anything in Pismo. Especially not that city council.


0

You should pray for their demise – or start a recall. But first pray, and ask God if he wants you to do the recall. I’m sure he’ll tell you just what you want to hear.


0

Please keep your religion out of our goverment if you want our goverment out of your churches.


0

To borrow a phrase from Abraham Lincoln:

Religion should be …of the people, by the people and for the people. The government should stay out of it.


0

…but are we not a government of the people, by the people and for the people? So mathematically, Lincoln contradicts himself… no surprise there, he was only a lawyer, not some great statesman.


0

JESUS SAID: “And when thou prayest , thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you , They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest , ENTER INTO THOU CLOSET, and when thou hast shut thy door, PRAY TO THY FATHER WHICH IS IN SECRET; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray , USE NOT VAIN REPETITIONS, AS THE HEATHEN DO: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” (Matthew 6:5-7)


Any TRUE Christian at the Pismo Beach council meeting should be outraged because this “snake handling” Pentecostal chaplain is going directly against the words of Jesus the Christ by NOT following his command in how to pray as shown in the above passage! Blaspheme!


When is the complaining pseudo-christians in this thread going to actually start following God’s inspired word in the Judeo-Christian bible? This Pentecostal chaplain will see the trap doors to hell sprung open in his behalf as he is thrown into the sulfur lakes of Hell upon his demise for going directly against Jesus’ doctrine!


To make it fair for ALL of the contradicting religions and their God concepts, why not have a “pray off” to start this meeting? All of the different and contradicting God factions with their specific religious doctrine would have their representatives present at the council meeting, then their adherents can throw supplications skyward to their specific Gods.


Then, in turn, see which God came out ahead at the end of the council meeting relative to the propositions posed! All of the various and contradicting godly religions pay taxes into the coffers of Pismo Beach, so why shouldn’t THEIR GOD CONCEPTS AND PRAYERS be recognized as well at the beginning of these meetings?


It’s an irony that pseudo-christians vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods and their specific doctrines claimed by other religions that are still practiced today, and that blatantly contradict theirs, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence or mention of their specific God and his doctrine. It’s truly comical and entertaining to watch.


0

You are the best at what you do Neighborino!


0

Brother Ted, you are a breath of fresh air.


0

I was raised Catholic, but no longer attend any church. I do have lots of friends and acquaintances that are very religious and I very much respect there right to practice their religion.


However, I think a lot of religious people have this whole establishment issue backwards. The constitution doesn’t allow a government entity to pick/favor/selectively support (hence establish) an official religion.


This is protecting and in the best interest of everyone who practices their religion.


For a thought experiment lets imagine a situation where religion is taught in schools, where all government commission and committee start off by swearing their allegiance to a god. Do you think they would be teaching YOUR religion? Do you think they would be swearing allegiance to YOUR god? Would they be following the exact practice of YOUR religion?


Since their are hundred of different religions (at least 25 different Christian) practiced in this country, the answers to the above questions are most certainly no, it won’t be your religion.


Stop and think for a moment about what an official religion would look like. It would be cobbled together by politicians and implemented by bumbling bureaucrats. Then politicians and bureaucrats would constantly con-volute and torture it until it is utterly unrecognizable as any religion. Is this what anyone would really want?


0

SLOthinker,


“Stop and think for a moment about what an official religion would look like. It would be cobbled together by politicians and implemented by bumbling bureaucrats. Then politicians and bureaucrats would constantly con-volute and torture it until it is utterly unrecognizable as any religion. Is this what anyone would really want?”


Are you alluding to Christianity? There are over 33,000 DIFFERENT Christian sects worldwide. There are 233 DIFFERENT Christian bibles available with their specific “translation” that ALL claim to be correct, when only one can be in this respect, or none at all.


What is comical is that assumed Christians actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and their contradicting church history. But, they still call themselves a Christian. If Christians actually followed ALL of the bible’s inspired word and doctrine, they would all be in jail, or awaiting a prison sentence!


Oh, the irony. :)


0

Thinker, you kind of made some big jumps there, however your point is still clear.

I would add that an official religion is prohibited by the law true, but our nation was, until recently, a Judeo-Christian founded and operated and voting nation. As we’ve entered a clearly Post Christian phase, some of us adherents to the old basic J.C. tenets hold longingly to any preacher of any variety of the J C faith varieties giving an invocation at a public meeting. It will stop, like the pledge of allegiance will stop within 15 years.


We know we’re losing, we know this beloved stuff is going away amidst busy sexting social media, a hypothecated fiat currency, and a national leader who looked at the camera dozens of times and lied about his takeover of health care, and keeping one’s policy and physician. Pretty much nothing has values any more.


We had it better, Thinker, in our way and our time, and by “better” I mean rooted somewhat in good values, but I grant that you up to date folks probably consider us troglodytes, Luddites, whatever.


As we set adrift without a core American concept of values nor faith, save for that in a faster Internet and personal greed, it brings to mind the concepts of other collapsed societies. Remember the Rodney King riots which I personally lived in the midst of, and I can point to the collapse of core values over decades. Just sayin’, Bud.


0

I served with an dyed-in-the-wool atheist in 1975. While he laid dying with half his guts on my flak jacket and the other half spread out on the deck, he kept calling a out name, and it wasn’t his momma’s. I hope God heard his screams and accepted him for the good he did in his short life.


As for you atheists who are once again whining and complaining – good luck.


0

thank you for sharing your sacred memories


0

While he laid dying with half his guts on my flak jacket and the other half spread out on the deck, he kept calling a out name, and it wasn’t his momma’s. I hope God heard his screams and accepted him for the good he did in his short life.

——————-

This is a tired, old cliche. The argument is basically “there are no athiests in fox holes” and it’s one ignorant Christians have been pushing since WW1. The argument is patently illogical. For example, in the last decade the people getting bombed and dying in fox holes have overwhelmingly been Muslims so when a Muslim calls out his God’s name from a foxhole, does it make the Muslim’s God real? If not, then why would it make the Christian’s God any more real?


Once again, the answer here is education. With education, people will no longer put forward illogical cliches in attempt to try and convince others of their positions.


0

Choco, you said “With education, people will no longer put forward illogical cliches in attempt to try and convince others of their positions”.


A good belly laugh for me. If what you say is true, the highly educated liberals and liberal college professors would all resign and go home ! Think about it.


I understand what you meant to say, but my thoughts unfairly swung to the liberals who’ve been beating me with their “positions” since 1970’s college days, and I had a great, refreshing laugh.


0

aft50s,


Which God concept was he calling out? The one of Allah, Yahweh, Mithra, Zeus, Jesus, Jehovah, or another? You must be specific, because all of the aforementioned names of Gods were all drastically different in the age of when man created these gods!


0

I have lain with many a spirited wench who called out to god. Your point and mine are exactly as relevant. It’s just something people say.


0

*zing!*


…and here I thought they just called out for help!


0

Where exactly did you serve in 1975? I don’t seem to remember any wars or even “police actions” going on at that time. This is, as abigchocoholic said, a tired cliche — a constantly repeated and occasionally updated tale that keeps getting passed on by those who wish to belittle others who don’t believe.


While I have no doubts that a similar incident has occurred at some time in the past (maybe even more than once), I have heard no credible evidence that it is commonplace. The fact that some Christians insist on repeating the same tale with only a few details changed to make it sound more personal makes me question the integrity of those people and wonder just why they think it is necessary to lie to reinforce their own beliefs.


Of course, you could just be a troll trying to stimulate responses such as mine and several others who have likewise called you on the truth or logic of your tale.


0

Yes early seventies flaccid militarily , until “urgent fury” 1983 restored the turgid splendor needed for invasive international aggression,


0

Where exactly did you serve in 1975? I don’t seem to remember any wars or even “police actions” going on at that time.

_____________________________________________________________________


Typically I wouldn’t bother with a poster that is either too young or just plain ignorant of this country’s past… but since you at least had the courage to expose your lack of knowledge about what was going on in 1975, put down your xbox controller and look up Mayaquez incident.


BTW “Have a nice day”


0

I just wish your god would quit splattering peoples guts all over the place….people are willing to suspend belief in reality and scientific fact when it comes to religion, and yet they do this in no other faction of their life…..it makes no sense.


0

There is no such thing as separation of church and state. There is such a thing as no religion will be made official. If Pismo were requiring or establishing a specific religion as the “official religion of Pismo” – then there is a violation.


Asking someone – or even hiring someone – to give a prayer is not establishing a state religion.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

(just in case anyone forgot)


0

There is no such thing as separation of church and state.

—————-

You are wrong. No less than the Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you.


Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961)

Court holds that the state of Maryland cannot require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause.


Engel v. Vitale, 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)

Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.


Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963)

Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) – Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional.


Epperson v. Arkansas, 89 S. Ct. 266 (1968)

State statue banning teaching of evolution is unconstitutional. A state cannot alter any element in a course of study in order to promote a religious point of view. A state’s attempt to hide behind a nonreligious motivation will not be given credence unless that state can show a secular reason as the foundation for its actions.


Lemon v. Kurtzman, 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971)

Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment’s separation of church and state:

1) the government action must have a secular purpose;

2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion;

3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion.


Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980)

Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional.


Wallace v. Jaffree, 105 S. Ct. 2479 (1985)

State’s moment of silence at public school statute is unconstitutional where legislative record reveals that motivation for statute was the encouragement of prayer. Court majority silent on whether “pure” moment of silence scheme, with no bias in favor of prayer or any other mental process, would be constitutional.


Edwards v. Aquillard, 107 S. Ct. 2573 (1987)

Unconstitutional for state to require teaching of “creation science” in all instances in which evolution is taught. Statute had a clear religious motivation.


Allegheny County v. ACLU, 492 U.S. 573 (1989)

Court finds that a nativity scene displayed inside a government building violates the Establishment Clause.


Lee v. Weisman, 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)

Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It involves government sponsorship of worship. Court majority was particularly concerned about psychological coercion to which children, as opposed to adults, would be subjected, by having prayers that may violate their beliefs recited at their graduation ceremonies.


0

The Supreme Court has not correctly upheld the Constitution for generations. To claim establishment clause for school districts, one would have to argue that the rules that said districts establish are in fact LAWS. Those are terribly wrong, politically-motivated, activist rulings and you know that.


The Establishment Clause is about creating LAWS that establish a religion. Asking kids to pray is not a LAW, nor is it establishing one… unless we’re ready to say that school districts and other non-legislative government bureaucracies can establish laws via rules and regulations…


Heck, that’d be about as legal as having a waste management bureaucrat write a law banning plastic bags! Imagine that: an un-accountable, un-elected bureaucrat deciding what the citizenry can or cannot do! Pshah!


0

The Supreme Court has not correctly upheld the Constitution for generations.

——————–

This is a perfect example of why religion was banned from government from day 1. In every generation, there are religious who are so consumed with their beliefs that they recognize nothing but their own belief system. And some of them will stop at nothing to attempt to insert their belief system on others.


0

FYI – you might want to actually READ what you copy and pasted. Some good indicators of what separation really is (i.e. forcing a kid, schools writing the prayer, etc.). Nothing remotely close to hiring a clergyman to pray before a meeting.


0

Nothing remotely close to hiring a clergyman to pray before a meeting.

———————–

Oh really?


Lee v. Weisman, 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)

Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It involves government sponsorship of worship. Court majority was particularly concerned about psychological coercion to which children, as opposed to adults, would be subjected, by having prayers that may violate their beliefs recited at their graduation ceremonies.


0

Their argument only holds true if one is limited in their understanding of “sponsorship of worship” – that is really not establishing a religion at all, but I understand you and many others wish to see it that way.


0

r0y,


YOUR QUOTE: “Asking someone – or even hiring someone – to give a prayer is not establishing a state religion.”


So, as proffered before with Cindy, you would be okay in asking or hiring a Muslim to perform the Adan, the calling to prayer of the Muslims, and being forced to listen to the doctrinal words of Islam through their God of Allah? As you state, this said act in this instance is not establishing a state religion, remember? Get it?


Or, better yet, why not have the Pismo city council recognize, in the same way they do with Christianity through a Pentacostal chaplain, by having the religion of Santeria start their meetings? Then it’s followers could sacrifice a chicken as a part of their prayer ritual at the beginning of the council meeting! Since this faith is allegedly not establishing a religion either in your way of thinking, then you’re obviously okay with this action. Yes? But, would you be present to help clean up the premises subsequent to such a bloody act? Get it?


Tell me if you’ve heard this adage before; “you can’t have your cake and eat it too!” Get it?


0

I have no problems if they want to bring in an Imam and perform a Muslim prayer. Heck, they can ask a Buddist to meditate for them or any other faith (especially if many share that same faith)… it still DOES NOT ESTABLISH an official religion of the state.


0

r0y,


You left out how you would feel if the Santeria faith was recognized! Too bloody of an action for you?


0

So ritual sacrifice (organic chickens naturally) and group prayer before city council meetings followed by a community BBQ to benefit a good cause.


I’m in, lets get this on the calendar!


0

No one is inserting their religion into government. They are simply praying for some “divine guidance” in the process and frankly, with all the screw ups in “gubmint”, I’d say we could use some.


0

Cindy,


If you assume, erroniously in vain, that no one is inserting their religion into government under this circumstance, then why not pray to Allah God for His divine guidance instead of referencing Christianity and Jesus as the current chaplain is doing from his barbaric “snake handling” Pentecostal church? Allah also gives divine guidance to his specific followers, in the same way that the assumed Christian God does to his following.


Since you’re an assumed Christian, of course Pismo’s situation doesn’t bother you, but if the Pismo Beach council meeting started with the Adhan, the call to prayer of Muslims, then the irony is that you would probably take exception to being forced to swallow the doctrinal words of Islam!


EACH DIFFERENT AND CONTRADICTING RELIGION HAS IT’S OWN DOCTRINE AND SPECIFIC GODS! You just don’t get it, do you?


0

I get it just fine Ted. I don’t care if some Muslim wants to show up at a CC meeting and pray to Allah or Mohammad for their divine intervention as long as they don’t get in my way and deny me the right to pray to Jesus for his divine wisdom during the people’s process. If the Christian Pastor is allowed 5 minutes and someone else shows up then cut it down to 2 1/2 minutes each but don’t deny me of my right to free speech.


0

You are becoming quite the Constitutionalist. Thank you for that!


0

So if a representative of every religion present in Pismo Beach (I bet their are at least 30) shows up and wants to pray for guidance, would you be OK with limiting it to 10 seconds each?


Would that include the “Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster” or would you deny that point of view because of the satirical nature? What religions would be allowed? Wiccans? Santeria? Satanists? Jesus Malverde or Santa Muerta (Mexican drug cartel religions?) What about if an Atheist or Agnostic shows up and asks for permission to pray to all those present to permit reason and civility to reign even though such a person claims to have no religion?


I have no problem with a moment of silence for contemplation by everyone about keeping their own behavior civil and ethical at such a meeting but allowing a representative of any specific religion to invoke their own beliefs on others should not be a function of any government. This is really not a major issue in and of itself, but it is a step towards government advocacy of a religion and we have seen how easy it is for government to infringe on other rights one small step at a time.


0

and “what if” and “what if” and “what if”. The “what ifs” that some people can come up with regarding most circumstances are enough to grind our lives to a complete stop.


Your scenario is highly unlikely. What if the entire country were to vote? Would we have to extend election day, would there be enough ballots ?

OH NO.


0

The council adopted the policy to comply with an appellate ruling that municipal prayer sessions cannot include sectarian deities, such as Jesus Christ.

—————————–

Why, oh why, do the Christians continually try to insert their religion into the government?

Seriously, why? Why can’t you just keep your religious practices private? You’ve been told over and over and over by every reviewing court in the nation to stop. Just stop with the mind numbing attempts to insert your primitive belief system into government.


Do you people have any idea how offensive you are? No? Well just imagine that instead of praying to your invisible sky fairy at public meetings that someone walks up to the podium and asks everyone to get down on their knees and face Mecca and pray to that God– without specifically mentioning the God’s name. Is that ok with you? Would that make you feel comfortable at the next public govt. meeting?


Now do you see how offensive you are?


Just stop.


0

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 1:18-20


0

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.


“Now do you see how offensive you are?


Just stop.”


Yes Please.


0

Read the first paragraph of the post by Ted Slanders at 1242 pm today. You may not agree with much of anything Ted says but those words are straight out of the Bible. How do you reconcile your views with that?


0

12:42


0
1 2 3